Joe Posnanski
Menu
  • Home
  • Books
  • Passions in America
  • The Athletic
  • Baseball 100
  • JoeWords
  • About Joe
    • Contact
Menu

The Ballot: Garcia and Garland

Posted on December 28, 2018December 29, 2018 by Joe Posnanski

Below is a sneak peek of this content!

Freddy Garcia Pitching: 120 points League leaders: 10 points (led league in ERA and innings in 2001) Was the pitcher on the mound when Bud Selig declared the All-Star Game a tie: 5 points. That the All-Star Game thing is one of the few interesting things I can think of...
Hello. You're probably seeing this boring paragraph because you haven't signed up yet to become a member. You can sign up here. We have a lot of fun here -- we're counting down the 100 best major league players of all time, writing a lot about baseball and dieting and family and music and other sports and geek tech and infomercials and, you know, whatever comes to mind. Would love to have you join us. There's also a chance that you're reading this because you can't sign in -- if that's the case, please click here and you can go to "posts" and see all the stories and stuff directly on the Patreon membership site.
To view this content, you must be a member of Joe Posnanski's Patreon at "Posterisk*" or higher tier
Unlock with Patreon Unlock with Patreon

14 thoughts on “The Ballot: Garcia and Garland”

  1. Avatar ajnrules says:
    December 28, 2018 at 11:02 pm

    Freddy Garcia doesn’t getting any extra points for being the best player the Mariners got in return for the Randy Johnson (his 34.4 bWAR beating out Carlos Guillen by almost 7) even after making a Big Unit Reference later on the article? D:

    Log in to Reply
    1. Avatar Michael says:
      December 29, 2018 at 3:37 am

      Or for being the best pitcher on the best team of the last ~50 years? Not saying he was the reason for their success, but he certainly didn’t hurt.

      Log in to Reply
      1. Avatar Philip says:
        December 29, 2018 at 4:03 pm

        Doc Gooden, Bobby Ojeda, and even Ron Darling would like a word…

        Log in to Reply
        1. Avatar invitro says:
          December 29, 2018 at 6:20 pm

          Actually, it’s Chris Sale. Because of improved skill of baseball players over time, it’s clear that the 2018 Red Sox would whip the 2001 Mariners or 1986 Mets or any other team, and are the best team of all time. (Unless the Mariners were allowed to use roids, but the Red Sox weren’t… then it might be close.)

          Log in to Reply
          1. Avatar Philip says:
            December 29, 2018 at 6:49 pm

            I’m not sure the progress curve of talent is that steep: I don’t believe high schoolers of today could whip the 1902 Pirates. Regardless, the only reliable way we have to measure “greatness” is in context, and the 1986 Mets (or 1929 A’s or 1941 Yankees, et al.) were far and away superior to their competition.

          2. Avatar invitro says:
            December 29, 2018 at 7:57 pm

            I’m not comparing the high schoolers of today to the 1902 Pirates; I’m comparing two MLB 108-win teams (Sox vs Mets) or two MLB teams that differ by 8 wins (Sox vs M’s) and roid usage. The difference between the 2018 Red Sox and a 2018 high school team is probably thousands of times the difference between the 2018 Red Sox and a 2018 100-win team. The progress curve doesn’t have to be any kind of steep; the 1986 Mets and 2018 Red Sox won the same number of games, so there just has to be some kind of progress to put the Sox over the Mets.
            …
            It’s not accurate, but all you have to do is watch the batters and hitters in a 1980’s game to see that they were greatly inferior to today’s players. I definitely believe that many current high school players could outplay many 1980’s MLB players.
            …
            Also, players in 2018 came from a larger population of good, at least minor-league level players, mainly because there are so many Hispanic players now, and also from the increased number of east Asian players.
            …
            (Of course, I’m not stating this as fact. :))

          3. Avatar Philip says:
            December 29, 2018 at 8:32 pm

            I totally get that point: no argument that as far as pure ability/athleticism goes, modern athletes are better. And of course the “absolute value” of a collection of superior athletes makes for a “better” team in terms of pure capability. But to measure the greatness of a team, I’d argue that they must be assessed in context. And in 2018 the competitive balance in the AL was wildly askew with three 100-win teams and three 100-loss teams. So while Sale may represent the pinnacle of pitching at this point in time, playing for the best collection of baseballers assembled (until next year or next decade) he’s not on an all-time great team. So I’ll stand by my insistence that the greatest pitcher on the greates team is Gooden, or Hoot Gibson, or Mort Cooper, or Urban Shocker, or someone like that.

            Regarding ‘roids, that’s a whole ‘nother argument. 😛

          4. Avatar invitro says:
            December 30, 2018 at 12:13 am

            I’m pretty much tongue-in-cheek here. I find it annoying, and very BORING, when someone whips out the argument that Babe Ruth wasn’t anything compared to Willie Mays because he played 30 years prior, and didn’t have to play against blacks or Hispanics. Well, the logical continuation is that Willie Mays wasn’t anything compared to Mike Trout. Heck, Willie Mays isn’t anything compared to George Springer. The only interesting way to compare players, and teams, across different eras is as you said, by their amount of dominance over their competition.
            …
            I don’t know who the most dominant team was, but I’ll bet it was the 1906 Chicago Cubs, who were 20 games up on the 2nd-place Giants. And their best pitcher was Three Finger Brown.

        2. Avatar Philip says:
          December 30, 2018 at 1:32 am

          I actually wrote an article for a SABR “By the Numbers” newsletter in 2003 about using the differential to measure team quality. I used normalized run differential (number of standard deviations from the mean) and adjusted for league size, but you could just as easily use win differential. Using runs, the best was the 1881 White Stockings, followed by the 1944 Cardinals, 1915 Phillies, 1917 Giants, and 1927 Yankees. Using wins, the 1941 Yankees were the most dominant: a glance at the AL standings shows how balanced that league was. So, Marius Russo?!?! Those Yanks weren’t much for star-quality pitching, just a well-balanced staff and great relievers. BTW, 1906 Cubs are #18 on the list.

          Log in to Reply
          1. Avatar Schuyler says:
            December 30, 2018 at 9:16 pm

            “I definitely believe that many current high school players could outplay many 1980’s MLB players.”

            Hot take. Also insane

  2. Avatar Brian says:
    December 29, 2018 at 3:38 pm

    I’m still surprised Javy Vazquez called it quits at 34. He had a legit shot at 3,000 strikeouts if he kept going.

    Log in to Reply
  3. Avatar daniel says:
    December 29, 2018 at 4:20 pm

    Well articulated Joe. I like remembering good players. I like thinking back on players who gave me a little joy, if only briefly. A player doesn’t need to be a clear HOFer or even a borderliner to merit these little essays.
    /
    And not that it matters to anyone else, but my father-in-law was the salary arbitrator who heard Garcia’s case years back. So that is worth a few points in my personal race to 400. And as Freddy won that decision, maybe by proxy I can get a few points in my race to 400 to achieve Brilliant Reader status!

    Log in to Reply
  4. Avatar Mike says:
    December 30, 2018 at 2:31 pm

    Thanks for this post, Joe! I’m a fan of the Sox, and in 2005, I called New Orleans home. Katrina hit, and my life was upside down for the next year or so. That 2005 playoff run gave me so much needed joy, and I always have a moment of happiness when the names of the guys on that team pop up in conversation. Seeing Garcia and Garland together on the ballot this year really made me happy (even though you’re right, in that they’re not even close to being hall of famers).

    Log in to Reply
  5. Pingback: My 2018 in Reading - Ross Barkan for State Senate

Leave a Reply Cancel reply

You must be logged in to post a comment.

Become a JoeBlogs Member!

Archives

  • June 2019
  • May 2019
  • April 2019
  • March 2019
  • February 2019
  • January 2019
  • December 2018
  • November 2018
  • October 2018
  • September 2018
  • August 2018
  • July 2018
  • June 2018
  • May 2018
  • April 2018
  • March 2018
  • February 2018
  • January 2018
  • December 2017
  • November 2017
  • October 2017
  • September 2017
  • August 2017
  • July 2017
  • June 2017
  • May 2017
  • April 2017
  • March 2017
  • February 2017
  • January 2017
  • December 2016
  • November 2016
  • October 2016
  • September 2016
  • August 2016
  • July 2016
  • June 2016
  • May 2016
  • April 2016
  • March 2016
  • February 2016
  • January 2016
  • December 2015
  • November 2015
  • October 2015
  • September 2015
  • August 2015
  • July 2015
  • June 2015
  • May 2015
  • April 2015
  • March 2015
  • February 2015
  • January 2015
  • December 2014
  • November 2014
  • October 2014
  • September 2014
  • August 2014
  • July 2014
  • June 2014
  • May 2014
  • April 2014
  • March 2014
  • February 2014
  • January 2014
  • December 2013
  • November 2013
  • October 2013
  • September 2013
  • August 2013
  • July 2013
  • June 2013
  • May 2013
  • April 2013
  • March 2013
  • February 2013
  • January 2013
  • December 2012
  • November 2012
  • October 2012
  • September 2012
  • August 2012
  • July 2012
  • June 2012
  • May 2012
  • April 2012
  • March 2012
  • February 2012
  • January 2012
  • December 2011
  • November 2011
  • October 2011
  • September 2011
  • August 2011
  • July 2011
  • June 2011
  • May 2011
  • April 2011
  • March 2011
  • February 2011
  • January 2011
  • December 2010
  • November 2010
  • October 2010
  • September 2010
  • August 2010
  • June 2010
  • May 2010
  • January 2010
  • April 2009
  • September 2008
  • September 2007
  • April 2003
©2021 Joe Posnanski
loading Cancel
Post was not sent - check your email addresses!
Email check failed, please try again
Sorry, your blog cannot share posts by email.