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Freddy Garcia Pitching: 120 points League leaders: 10 points (led league in ERA and innings in 2001) Was the pitcher on the mound when Bud Selig declared the All-Star Game a tie: 5 points. That the All-Star Game thing is one of the few interesting things I can think of...
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Freddy Garcia doesn’t getting any extra points for being the best player the Mariners got in return for the Randy Johnson (his 34.4 bWAR beating out Carlos Guillen by almost 7) even after making a Big Unit Reference later on the article? D:
Or for being the best pitcher on the best team of the last ~50 years? Not saying he was the reason for their success, but he certainly didn’t hurt.
Doc Gooden, Bobby Ojeda, and even Ron Darling would like a word…
Actually, it’s Chris Sale. Because of improved skill of baseball players over time, it’s clear that the 2018 Red Sox would whip the 2001 Mariners or 1986 Mets or any other team, and are the best team of all time. (Unless the Mariners were allowed to use roids, but the Red Sox weren’t… then it might be close.)
I’m not sure the progress curve of talent is that steep: I don’t believe high schoolers of today could whip the 1902 Pirates. Regardless, the only reliable way we have to measure “greatness” is in context, and the 1986 Mets (or 1929 A’s or 1941 Yankees, et al.) were far and away superior to their competition.
I’m not comparing the high schoolers of today to the 1902 Pirates; I’m comparing two MLB 108-win teams (Sox vs Mets) or two MLB teams that differ by 8 wins (Sox vs M’s) and roid usage. The difference between the 2018 Red Sox and a 2018 high school team is probably thousands of times the difference between the 2018 Red Sox and a 2018 100-win team. The progress curve doesn’t have to be any kind of steep; the 1986 Mets and 2018 Red Sox won the same number of games, so there just has to be some kind of progress to put the Sox over the Mets.
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It’s not accurate, but all you have to do is watch the batters and hitters in a 1980’s game to see that they were greatly inferior to today’s players. I definitely believe that many current high school players could outplay many 1980’s MLB players.
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Also, players in 2018 came from a larger population of good, at least minor-league level players, mainly because there are so many Hispanic players now, and also from the increased number of east Asian players.
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(Of course, I’m not stating this as fact. :))
I totally get that point: no argument that as far as pure ability/athleticism goes, modern athletes are better. And of course the “absolute value” of a collection of superior athletes makes for a “better” team in terms of pure capability. But to measure the greatness of a team, I’d argue that they must be assessed in context. And in 2018 the competitive balance in the AL was wildly askew with three 100-win teams and three 100-loss teams. So while Sale may represent the pinnacle of pitching at this point in time, playing for the best collection of baseballers assembled (until next year or next decade) he’s not on an all-time great team. So I’ll stand by my insistence that the greatest pitcher on the greates team is Gooden, or Hoot Gibson, or Mort Cooper, or Urban Shocker, or someone like that.
Regarding ‘roids, that’s a whole ‘nother argument. 😛
I’m pretty much tongue-in-cheek here. I find it annoying, and very BORING, when someone whips out the argument that Babe Ruth wasn’t anything compared to Willie Mays because he played 30 years prior, and didn’t have to play against blacks or Hispanics. Well, the logical continuation is that Willie Mays wasn’t anything compared to Mike Trout. Heck, Willie Mays isn’t anything compared to George Springer. The only interesting way to compare players, and teams, across different eras is as you said, by their amount of dominance over their competition.
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I don’t know who the most dominant team was, but I’ll bet it was the 1906 Chicago Cubs, who were 20 games up on the 2nd-place Giants. And their best pitcher was Three Finger Brown.
I actually wrote an article for a SABR “By the Numbers” newsletter in 2003 about using the differential to measure team quality. I used normalized run differential (number of standard deviations from the mean) and adjusted for league size, but you could just as easily use win differential. Using runs, the best was the 1881 White Stockings, followed by the 1944 Cardinals, 1915 Phillies, 1917 Giants, and 1927 Yankees. Using wins, the 1941 Yankees were the most dominant: a glance at the AL standings shows how balanced that league was. So, Marius Russo?!?! Those Yanks weren’t much for star-quality pitching, just a well-balanced staff and great relievers. BTW, 1906 Cubs are #18 on the list.
“I definitely believe that many current high school players could outplay many 1980’s MLB players.”
Hot take. Also insane
I’m still surprised Javy Vazquez called it quits at 34. He had a legit shot at 3,000 strikeouts if he kept going.
Well articulated Joe. I like remembering good players. I like thinking back on players who gave me a little joy, if only briefly. A player doesn’t need to be a clear HOFer or even a borderliner to merit these little essays.
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And not that it matters to anyone else, but my father-in-law was the salary arbitrator who heard Garcia’s case years back. So that is worth a few points in my personal race to 400. And as Freddy won that decision, maybe by proxy I can get a few points in my race to 400 to achieve Brilliant Reader status!
Thanks for this post, Joe! I’m a fan of the Sox, and in 2005, I called New Orleans home. Katrina hit, and my life was upside down for the next year or so. That 2005 playoff run gave me so much needed joy, and I always have a moment of happiness when the names of the guys on that team pop up in conversation. Seeing Garcia and Garland together on the ballot this year really made me happy (even though you’re right, in that they’re not even close to being hall of famers).