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Hitting: 449 points Baserunning: –10 points Fielding: –85 points Bonus leader points: 15 (twice led league in doubles, once in RBIs) World Series excellence: 15 points Coaches a high school baseball team now: 5 points Was called “Fat Elvis” AND “Big Puma:” 5 points One of the 10 or 11...
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Paul Molitor was primarily a DH, in 4 seasons. He played forever, and mostly in the field. Edgar is the DH of all DHes. The DH was created in 1973. 45 seasons ago. It’s way past time to just freaking count the DH as the actual position it is.
Is Paul Molitor a HOFer? Absolutely! Was Molitor a DH? Occasionally.
Edgar Martinez is the prime Willie Mays Hall of Famer. He is Mr. DH. Why honor pitchers for saves and use DH as a throwaway position?
Paul Molitor DH’d almost as many times as he played second and third base combined.
And, I concur, there’s nothing wrong with that.
I’m really on the fence about Edgar. Some days I look at his 300/400/500 and think “Wow, that’s obvious HOF stuff.” But then I see his counting numbers and am forced to shrug. They’re not impressive. And if he offered nothing else – no Gold Gloves or high dWAR, no SBs, no huge moments in the post-season – then how is he all that much different than Will Clark, Matt Holliday, or John Olerud (his 3 closest comps on baseball-reference) ? But then again, NONE of those guys had anything especially close to Edgar’s .933 OPS, which is incredibly impressive and is ahead of legends such as Aaron, Schmidt, and Griffey. Obviously Edgar gets in this year and I’ll be happy for him. He’s not an easy vote, but I’m glad he’ll be in.
Also, I’m curious: with the slash categories gaining importance, what do yall think about slash kings like Helton and Votto? (Before anyone says it: Helton’s road OPS is higher than those of Winfield, Murray, Kaline, Brett, and others. Helton wasn’t just Coors Field.)
Helton should go in sometime, and Votto should be a first-ballot pick. They rank #10 and #11 in WAR7 among 1B. All of the top 19 1B for WAR7 are either in, active, or were roidy. Going further down the list gives lots more HoF’ers, roiders, and players often mentioned as should-be or maybe-should-be-in (Keith Hernandez, Camilli, Olerud, Will Clark, McGriff, Mattingly) down to at least Cepeda at #37.
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The point here is that it’s a solid list, and Helton & Votto are way ahead of many legit HoF’ers. Helton might have to wait a few years. But Votto really should be first-ballot. He even has lots of great MVP results and lots of other hardware (RoY-2, GG, 6 All-Stars). The problems Votto might have are: a) he got a late start, first full season at age 24, b) not many playoffs and only one good one, c) his career counting stats won’t look that impressive. Helton also got a late start at age 24.
Helton also played in a much higher scoring environment. Those you listed played primarily in the 60’s-80’s.
I’ve always wondered this myself. Why to the writers that whine about how Ty Cobb wouldn’t recognize a DH and how in the old days a player needed to field, or whatever, have no problem with a guy who pitches one inning and whom Ty Cobb wouldn’t recognize either. All this is completely arbitrary.
Same as Andruw Jones is off the ballot for “character reasons” ie/ he got fat. But I can’t think of any other player kept out if his stats were good enough, because he used performance-degrading drugs. The rules seem to be consistent for no gamblers (WE ALL KNOW WHO) and no PED users (WE ALL KNOW WHO), and that one’s going to change soon. The other morals things are applied on a case-by-case basis.
And Edgar is 100% getting in this year, followed by Ortiz, and then with Baines in hopefully the “DH isn’t real” people will be consigned to the dustbin of baseball history along with people who think having your hat fly off when you run means you’re a gritty hustler.
I’m curious to know which sportswriters have passed on Andruw for character reasons… I’ve never heard that one.
That’s new to me, too. Getting fat doesn’t really reflect on one’s character as a baseball player, does it? It’s one thing if it’s related to drugs or attitude problems (Dave Parker…) but I don’t remember Andruw Jones ever being considered a clubhouse cancer. I’m curious to see what happens with Andruw, though. He has a real case as the best-fielding OF ever and is one of the very best fielders at ANY position. But he lacks the counting numbers and he lacks the “HOF aura” that many people go by.
No Kirby Puckett? Relatively short career, but perceived as a great player, 220 hit Mrs a year, gold Glover, lovable, great post season performer with two WS wins… better to include than Hartnett, Doby, or Dazzy Vance
No. Puckett’s HOF case, as well as the idea (fiction) that he was a lovable guy, have not held up well. In retrospect he shouldn’t even be in the HOF, much less the Willie Mays HOF.
I think an interesting exercise is, take a baseball player and imagine he dealt drugs out of the clubhouse and had multiple secret families and was mean to little kids. Is he still someone you’d vote for? Who would be out? Tony Gwynn, probably. In a post-BA world he looks overrated and he’s a famous for his kindness as he was for his playing. And I bet it would seriously hurt Rivera, probably not enough to keep him out but we wouldn’t be having the unanimous discussion. Schilling, on the other hand IS that person and every sportswriter I like pushes hard for him to be in the Hall even though Schlling personally said how great it would be if they were murdered.
Gwynn hit the big milestones, so he would’ve been in regardless of perception. It’s usually the borderline guys that suffer. Dick Allen, Dave Parker, Albert Belle, and now Curt Schilling all are facing the wrath of perception. A case could be made that Dave Kingman and Jose Canseco felt that wrath, too, though their HOF cases (I don’t think) are nearly as powerful as the others mentioned.
Take out Trammell and put in Cronin. 🙂
Cronin, Appling, and Boudreau are often grouped together, but I feel that Cronin was the best of the three. Boudreau only played 1600 something games.
Also, Im guessing this doesn’t count 19th Century guys? Nichols, Brothers, Connor, Anson, and Hamilton at the very least are automatics.
Boudreau’s peak (WAR7) was significantly higher than the other two guys.
As with any list, it is always colored by the listmaker’s opinion, so there is bound to be differing opinions, even on those you agree with. I was happy for Trammell to make the Hall, but putting him in the 100 is silly. The dude just went through 15 years of failing to get even 50% of people to vote for him, and needed a committee to get in. (Was it his 2nd year of consideration by the committee?) Putting him on a list of guys that people automatically think of as hall of famers or in an inner circle is silly.
Doby fell off after the second ballot and had to wait until the VC. How many people would keep him out of the top 100? Very few. DiMaggio took 2 ballots, Piazza 4 and they’re easy inner-circle no-brainers. Keep in mind that the greatest hitter and greatest pitcher ever aren’t getting in until the era committees. Plus ARod and the all-time hit king,.
First-ballot inductees include Smoltz, Glavine (not even the best pitchers ON THEIR OWN TEAMS). You want an inner-circle Hall where the only catchers are Bench and Irod? I don’t think anyone thinks that how long-dead idiot baseball writers voted should be any sort of guide.
One note about DiMaggio and the HOF: the rules for induction were in flux and some voters voted for him before the normal 6th year eligibility. He was overwhelmingly elected in his first year “eligible.”
I don’t think I know of any Top 100 list that includes Doby. So what’s your source for your claim that no one would keep him out, when I believe actually most everyone would keep him out?
If you think Bonds, Clemens, and A-Rod are gonna get in by the Vet’s Committee, you may be surprised…
One suggestion: add Rod Carew either at 2B or 1B for the top 100. By the advanced metrics (bWAR) he is 60th all time and 36th among position players. The WAR total is higher than position mates Gehringer, Bagwell, Thomas, Thome, Mize, Frisch, Murray, Sandberg, Alomar, Killibrew & Stargell. (Also Jackie R, but that is a different matter.) Likewise, his JAWS score, trying to blend peak and career, has him as the 6th best 2B ever
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For the narrative side, Carew was elected to the HOF in the first ballot with over 90% of the votes, won an MVP, and roughly a bazillion batting titles back when that was super-glorified.
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Plus, perhaps most importantly, he was the best player in baseball the year that Joe P (and I) turned 10 when, purely by coincidence, clearly baseball was better than it ever was or ever will be. 🙂
I think some commenters have missed the point of the exercise. It doesn’t matter whether these players deserve to be on the list. When Joe refers to the Willie Mays Hall-of-Fame he is talking about perception.
If you asked 100 fairly knowledgable baseball fans to list every player they think should be in the hall-of-fame, and then compiled the results, who would be in the top 100? That is what this refers to, the perception the majority.
Now that Mauer has retired I think he should bump Hartnett or Dickey. His War7 (all as a catcher) is 5th all time amongst Catchers. Plus he won 3 batting titles and an MVP as a catcher. If you want to penalize him because he only played half his career at Catcher, I understand that – but it was still a HOF worthy 9 years.
2nd the Carew omission. He had 8 seasons with a 5+ War (most as a 2nd Baseman) and was a great baserunner and when he led the league in Average it was usually by 30 or more points.